February 8, 2013
Although I’ve been sidelined the last couple of months doesn’t mean I haven’t been paying attention. And one of the things I’ve been trying to keep up on is this controversy regarding child avatars on OSGrid.
Child avatars has been, and will likely to remain, a very controversial and contentious issue. And this current controversy on OSG is part of that. It has also drawn its fair share of drama llamas and rabble rousers. I detest such things. People should be free to decide for themselves based on reasoned discussion, not emotionally loaded diatribes.
Let me start with my own position about child avatars. Whether a grid’s owners allow child avatars or not, I don’t allow them on my regions. I understand people using child avatars as a therapy to deal with their own childhood issues. I don’t have a problem with that. I know and recognize that roleplay is a valid therapeutic tool. Involving a virtual presence make it all that much more powerful. Hell, the military is using virtual world RP to help their people to deal with such things as PTSD.
But I don’t want to be a part of someone else’s therapy. I have enough issues of my own.
Another reason is that my regions get setup for combat, heavy vehicles, bars, nightclubs and more. All environments that we would never allow RL children to be in. There is nothing worse for my RP than to suddenly have a child skipping along through my environment.
And then there’s all the RL issues, such as paedophilia. If I don’t allow them, then I don’t have to deal with that.
Now, here’s the important point. No matter what anyone might say about that, making such a decision and taking this position is my right. I won’t argue it. I won’t debate it. I won’t discuss it.
And this is the exact same right that the owners of OSGrid have.
This dispute has become divisive within our community. It has become so because people are inflamed by emotional biased statements. And it appears to have started with a posting on one blog. The blog of Jai the Grid Explore Kid, found at http://jaigridexplorerkid.blogspot.ca/
So, let me show you a few things I noticed in the postings on the Kid’s blog. At the end of January, the Kid was at the LBSA Plaza on OSGrid when he contacted by Hiro regarding the avatar he was wearing. During that conversation, Hiro, acting as Admin, informed the Kid that child avatars were not allowed. The Kid started arguing the point. He was told there was no discussion, change avatar or leave. There’s not much more than that. There’s no pic, so no way of knowing what the av looked like. And the quoted section appears to be only a section, so there’s no way of knowing what happening in the minutes before. Nor do we know if the Kid complied or was booted. An important point from his Jan 29th post, though, is that the Kid admits he was wearing a child avatar.
From this pint on, it is clear that the Kid is targeting Hiro. He doesn’t accept the rule, so he declares Hiro to be a dictator. In fact, he Godwin’s himself in his Jan 30th posting …
“What we have here is the real world equivalent of WW2….one may think that view point sounds a bit extreme but i think it suits as a very good example. In the 1930's germany had it very bad off, they didnt know what to do which could help them recover there nation from horrible problems that loomed over them. Then ONE MAN got into power….forced his way into the position. His solution to the nations problems was to exterminate the jewish race from existence. “
Yeah, right. Banning child avatars is the same as murdering 6 million people. Clearly there is a huge emotional bias being portrayed here.
And then the Kid decides he’s going to push. On Jan 31 he returns to LBSA wearing a child avatar after he’s already been told they aren’t allowed! Something to note about the Kid’s posting of that day. ”… I did not have the time to copypasta that part of the chat as he ejected me from the plaza before i could properly do so. “ So, just how long does it take to copy and paste something?
In his next posting, the Kid then states ”It is my belief that this new rule in Osgrid has gone on long enough. Hiro cannot be allowed to get away with this injustice, if we allow him to have his way on this then that will only spell trouble for everyone on the grid in the coming future. Furries shall be at risk, Faieries, anyone that is different or lives a virtual life that is not within what he views as normal shall soon be in danger. “
Really? Injustice? Allowed? It would be a true injustice if OSGrid was the only grid. But it isn’t. It would be an injustice if OSGrid was a government. But it isn’t. It is a privately owned organization. It is made available to the general public for develop, use and enjoyment of OpenSimulator. There is no "allowing" involved. Seriously. How do you "not allow" this? Shoot him? Lock him up? Put him on trial? Clap him in irons?
On February 3rd, there was a Town Hall meeting. And the Kid decided he would attend. In a child av. His complaint is that the Meetings are open to all, but he’s not allowed because of his avatar. By that same logic, I should be able to attend RL Town Hall Meetings dressed in a bunny suit. But that’s not allowed. So, if I want to attend such a meeting, I either dress appropriately or I don’t go.
Overall, we have here a person who doesn’t like a rule, refuses to abide by it and believes he can have one of the owners removed. And we also have a number of other people who are buying into this. They have resorted to name calling, “dictator”, “Caesar” and others.
It should be noted that, from what I have seen, Hiro has behaved admirably. He has not responded with the same. At no time have I seen him call anyone names or imply anything negative about them, despite all the crap being thrown his way.
Here’s another important point. Hiro is not the only owner. There are three others. From what I understand of how any privately owned organization, non profit or for profit, is run, if the other owners don’t like a decision, the vote on it and change it, if the vote calls for it. Since the rule has not changed and Hiro’s decision has not been reversed, then it is reasonable to conclude that the majority of owners support him.
The owners of any grid, open or closed, for profit or not, have the right to make whatever rules they want. Just as we have the right to not go to hose that we disagree with. However none of us has the right to “overthrow” the “rulers” of a grid.
The behaviour that has gone on surrounding this issue is deplorable. People are behaving like gangs, not like a community. Rather than engaging in discussion, people have been engaging in mud-slinging and rabble rousing.
There’s more than enough of that shit in RL. Leave it there.
Well said. If the kid wants to wear what he pleases, he does have options. Just not on grids that have established bans on child avatars.
I'll keep this short - while you make valid points and are correct about the degree to which the situation has deteriorated, the fact is that you were NOT present when any of this was going down and are therefore not privy to many details which only first-hand observers have. Given the fact that feedback from OSG residents was being censored and deleted from websites in real-time BY the OSG admins, you should be able to understand the subsequent outrage - unless you in fact agree with that sort of heavy-handed misuse of authority.
That's the thing. Where is the evidence? What websites? Of those who were present, where's their postings? So far, all I can find are the Kid's blog and copies of his statements.
And no, I don't agree with heavy handedness. But, agree or not, there's nothing I can do but to accept it and seek reasonable ways to make changes. And this is one way of doing so.
This is a divisive issue for our community. By writing this as I did, pointing out some of the unreasonableness and drama that is going on, I can hope to generate a more reasoned discussion. It is only through such discussions that we can heal any rifts in our community. Whether you or anyone else agrees with my position or not, it is through such discussions that we move forward as a community. Not through drama and rabble rousing.
Good posting Sarge.
There has been so much "verbal origami" related to this topic that I am saddened to see it continue seemingly perpetuity. Poor Maria @ Hypergrid Business had her blog overcome by this topic for an extended time frame as you are likely aware.
Sadly, what a few select individuals choose to crusade about denigrates and harms the community overall and does absolutely no one any good. Since I have been a member of OSgrid for a few good years now, it has always been a Test, Development & Research grid. It's purpose was to be the initial test bed & live platform to do that in the myriad ways of possibly running OpenSim. Over the years it has grown and evolved yet still remains the test & dev platform but with more people wanting it to be something different. Something Different is another grid that is not a test & dev platform where you can stay and do your thing.
I'd also point out for those who may not be aware. OSgrid is funded and supported in part by donations. In addition to those donations Hiro provides tech support (server side & more) & hosting quite a bit on HIS DIME !!! While most can agree that he does everything he can to keep it going, as proven with his stepping up to take charge when Nebadon decided that he needed to step back, is admirable.
What is not realized by some, is that continued conflict and such "crusading" will only result in one thing and that is OSgrid being shut down and hands being wiped clean of it. Who would that benefit ? OpenSimulator ? NO, the developer's ? NO, the general users of OpenSim ? NO. No single individual needs to tolerate bashing, name calling and dealing with such crusader's and what will happen is things are going to get pushed to the extreme and one day a decision could be made that says "Pull the plug, it's just not worth the hassle". It's happened before on other grids and will happen again but does ANYONE want OSgrid to be folded up ? Maybe a select few do but they are the ones to shut down.
There's an old saying that applies: Don't feed the troll's, if you do, they will come back for more till the feed trough is empty.
Hello there sarge. First off I would like to say that I despise drama as much as the next person, but this does not change the fact that the issue at hand had gotten me quite steamed. The issue at hand is also about more than just child avatars as well, we now have an individual cutting an entire grid off from another world. But really i am so disgusted by the situation at this point that I frankly do not care anymore. Despite the fact that OSgrid has a strong community and many people who were in that community are no longer allowed because of there choice in avatar aparently some people do not seem to see that still Alwell….because the grid is now cut off from access to metropolis some would chose not to see that either..alwell. I am now being bashed for trying to inform the public of events that occured, and while yes many of the events were involving myself i still make it a point to prove that what i have posted was indeed factual, apart form my own individual commentaries on certain subjects. Secondly, If you read my blog fully you would also see that I have no issue with people leaving comments on there and asking me questions and voicing there concerns to me, i am not without reason. So why you had to go off on and create something like this is beyond me when we could have simply had an intelligent conversation on the issue, and we still can. despite this i am willing to talk, i am always willing to talk and have never silenced anyone as i believe that is incredibly wrong. So sarge have a nice day, and if you wish to speak with me at some point please say so and we can meet and have an intelligble conversation, but really though this has gotten to the point where i don't really care anymore.
Thanks for posting, Korgi. I do appreciate it.
I readily admit that I am not fully involved in this issue, but I also know that it is not about child avatars, either. You were the guy in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up bring things to a head.
I did not comment on your blog because that would be a response to an individual posting, not an expression of my own thoughts to the community at large. And that is who I am talking to, all those people who continue to generate the drama. And whether you wanted to do so or not, your postings have contributed to that drama. As for having an intelligent conversation, how can that occur if offensive and emotionally negative comments are made?
I did not set out to bash you. Nor have I been seeking a conversation with you in particular, nor any other individual. My goal is to bring things to a level where reasoned discussion can occur. Without name calling or making emotionally loaded statements. If I can.
I know that this is an issue of communication and control. That this is about the community and the future of OSGrid.
Right exactly, but my main point being though…why go on and post these things about my blog and myself with no prior attempt to even make contact. You see that something apears wrong in your eyes, why not contact me about it since i posted it in the first place. I had gotten quite vocal with the content in my blog yes, but only because i felt so strongly about what was going on and i felt i could make a real difference. As for emotinally negative comments I was reacting to the situation on how i felt about it, but i did also give the facts of it as well. However, if you were speaking of my conversations with hiro i was nothing but civil during those encounters. I spoke fluently and with respect, all i was guilty of in those instances is not changing my avatar. I have heard many similar cases where he has gone of spewing profanities in response to such situations, he did not do that to me but his reacting was still rude enough as it was. Regardless though seeing the content on another blog and going off on a spew about it is not the right approach. I could understand it if you had tried contacting me and i responded to you with rudeness…but there was no communication at all. However I do thank you for responding.
Well, as I said, I'm not out to bash you, or anybody else for that matter.
Clearly you don't like how I have handled this, but if I had contacted you via comments, how many people would have seen that as me taking a personal swipe at you? Between that and my desire to address the community as a whole, well, this is how things have turned out.
But I had a thought last night, Korgi.
I am seeing that there is a huge iceberg of issues with OSG here. What has happened with you is the tip of it. What makes matters worse is that not all of the information is out there, so people (including me) address only part of it. And that means there are a lot of others out there that are acting and reacting without all of the information.
So, here's my thought. I have taken over the management and administration of Grid Press. How about you write something about all of this? Not just what has happened with you, but the whole of the issue. Citations, links, think of it as an investigative news report. By writing something for Grid Press, it would give you the opportunity to step back a little and take a more objective view, yet, because you are directly involved, you would be able to show how this has affected you and everyone else.
I would publish it as an editorial/opinion, so the only editing would be for liability.
My apologies for taking so long to respond back, i went to bed for the night…just now woke up. Sarge…I do agree that there is alot going on here that people either do not see or refuse to look at all together, and as an individual who considers informing the public of current events I would be more than happy to take this task. I shall soon begin doing some digging within various resources and come up with something tangible and thought provoking in the near future pertaining to the whole of the OSgrid issue. Grid Press shall have its story :D
Thank you very much, Korgi. I look forward to reading and publishing what you discover.
as someone who lost their grandparents to Hitler, i can state that my opinion is that banning child avatars is NOT similar to Nazi Germany …
i personally support the respectful portrayal of children in the virtual world and my avatar is an opportunity for me to embrace my inner child. my avatar isn't a child avatar but i have no issue with others doing this
however, nothing much in this world is truly open and free. and if someone who has responsibility for a grid decides to ban child avatars, that is their prerogative (even if i don't agree with it personally)
i will be having real children on our commercial grid, probably no younger than 13 year olds, and protecting them is important. luckily, most kids online are pretty frigging savvy and can spot a weirdo easily
an adult role playing as a child can be therapeutic and, as such, probably should be done in a therapeutic setting. i had some abuse as a kid and have no interest in trying to conquer this with self-guided child role playing with strangers - i think i would be setting myself up for possible further abuse
there are professional organizations and institutions that could help create a safe environment for child role playing and perhaps that is what needs to be done
for OSgrid, they have the right to do this and are actually legally bound to do this if the grid is used in certain countries (such as Spain which has zero tolerance laws regarding this)
does it suck now that this ban is strongly enforced? yes it does but nothing is preventing anyone from creating a specific grid for this - one that can legitimately be therapeutic
Therapy is not the only reason for having a child avatar -and really, there is no need to have a "reason" for having a child avatar, any more than there is a need to have a "reason" to be a furry or any other type of avatar. I'm not sure what the laws in spain are like -however, I do know that SL operates in spain, and I'm not aware of them having any particular legal problems stemming from allowing child avatars.
Engaging in sexual behavoir as a child avatar can lead to legal concerns in several countries, but I don't think most people who use child avatars do so out of sexual reasons. In fact, many people use child avatars specifically to get away from the sexual side of SL without having to resort to being an animal or robot or something.
I would support an "avatar's bill of rights", personally. One's choice of avatar IS an expression of one's self, and unless laws against child pornography or inciting violence or hatred are being broken I think that in general we need to give the greatest amount of leeway possible to how people express themselves through their presentation of self.
One last point, OSGrid has never had *an established child avatar rule* -or even any rules; the TOS link has never gone anywhere, and if you do not have a TOS to point to, you effectively do not have rules to refer to. It's been common knowledge that this has been kept that way so that the admins can change policy either "on a dime" or "at their whim" (depending on your point of view). That's fine -but you cannot say that people are breaking "an established rule" when no rules have been established.
Isn't it extraordinary that even those who post purporting to be 'balanced' and the 'voice of reason' show bigotry and a very opinionated defence of what is actually open to discussion. Rules and Laws are written to redress balance, to offer a just viewpoint in the name of the masses, not to uphold the bigotry and narrow mindedness of the minority, grid owners or anyone else for that matter.
In this instance the grid owner affiliated child avatar and unlawful sex in one sentence. This is wholly uncalled for and a very unhealthy perspective from which to 'police' a grid. Who in a virtual world does not present themselves in a way that is open to opinion or affilation in the minds of any onlookers. You can presume, you can think what you like, but don't go round accusing and setting yourself up as judge and jury over everyone else. If you run any business you are bound by laws to set out terms of service abide by them. You cannot make them up as you go along, nor can you make assertions or infer that individuals are, or are likely to be participating in illegal activities without just cause. This will be why the affiliation to the likes of Hitler are derived. Effectively if you are the overlord, making up rules to suit your personal viewpoint and dictate by saying 'my way, or the highway'. You should not be unduly surprised when analogies of this kind are made.
So stop the prevarication, sort our some terms by which individuals can choose whether or not they wish to invest REAL MONEY & REAL TIME in your grid. Terms are a real life legal requirement and should be there for all to see. So if the aptly named grid owner here wishes to continue to run round his grid calling the shots based on nothing more than which side of bed he got out of this morning, I would suggest investing nothing there as he might decide he doesn't like you tomorrow!! Report all infringements in text, or actions related to the marginalization of any race, gender, sexual preference or affiliation to the appropriate authorities. If you run a business, you are culpable, profit making or not!!!
There has been a lot of hoohaa about the supposed 'banning' of child avatars from OS Grid. They are banned, and in fact always effectively have been from the OS Grid hosted regions, though it was formerly quite badly worded and unclear on any notices posted at any of the Plazas. I personally don't like to see child avatars, and I think that having that rule at the Plazas is a good one. However, in no way is it expressed that child avatars are banned from OS Grid. Many region owners in OS Grid have taken it upon themselves to ban child avatars from their own grids, either because the regions are Adult in category, or that the owners just don't like to see child avatars. I have banned child avatars from my regions for both reasons.
There may be a case for the creation of a grid for people to have child avatars for therapeutic reasons, under the supervison and support of professional counsellors, as there is no doubt a need fo this. The existence of child avatars on a grid will always be a contraversial issue, and questions will, (and imo should) be asked as to why grown adults feel the need to use child avatars. The reasons may be innocuous, but things can rapidly get out of control. (And given the metaverse rumourmill, will get out of hand) Anyone who read the pastebinned conversation between Jaiden and Walter Balazic will have seen the discussion about the now defunct Meta 7 that closed a couple of years ago. Ostensibly that grid closed over copyright issues over the name, but it's my guess that this was as much a cover as anything, and that it was a case of the operators closing it down before it was forcibly shut down. I visited that grid quite innocently in my early days in virtual worlds, and it was a while before I witnessed anything untoward, and though I never actually saw any fire I saw plenty of smoke on the occasion of one visit, enough to convinve me that the rumours I'd heard were far from groundless - it convinced me that the smoke really did indicate fire. I saw images that were unmistakenly suggestive of something very icky indeed, which could have possibly put me on the wrong side of the law. I wasn't aware that some from that community had come to OS Grid and started their unacceptable practices, but I am assured that they did so. However, it was around that time that the grid owner of the Pseudospace felt it imperative to emphaise that sexual ageplay was totally unacceptable on that grid, and that anyone engaging in that kind of thing would be banned and reported to the relevant authorities. There were indications that sort of thing MAY have been going on, as there were sims dedicated to child avies, but whilst cause for some concern, didn't raise the hackles in the way that my visit to Meta 7 did.
All this talk about rights, and terms of service etc are also a bit off the mark. This is a private grid that has opened it up for others to use. We have no rights, and if the owner(s) wish to bring in a new rule on a whim, so be it, it is their right. You are free to leave. The technology is simple enough to use now that you could set up your own HG enabled region in next to no time, or even set up a grid with some friends.
Maybe this is the wake-up call some people need. OS Grid isn't a democracy, any more than any other grid in the Metaverse is, so any talk about avatar rights is stupid. However, that is not a definitive statement, there is nothing stopping you going off and creating a grid run along democratic lines. I have been banned from some regions in OS Grid for what I consider, (and what any reasonable person would consider) to be spurios reasons, but I accept that the region owner has every right to do that, for whatever reasons - it is their regions, and whilst I think they are a complete and utter pratt for doing that, (though I happen to think that person a complete and utter pratt anyway, regardless of the fact that they banned me). It makes my OS Grid life a little inconvenient as some of the best shopping in OS Grid happens to be there on those regions - thank goodness for alts!
No one needs to be connected to OS Grid, or any other grid in the way that perhaps they needed to be even two or three years ago, HG is now pretty good, and works most of the time, It's also perfectly feasibel to host your own regions, and will become more so as most of us get increasing access to better bandwidth through the roll-out of fibre optic connections. Failing that data centre hosting is becoming more and more affordable almost everywhere except the rip-off UK, (where paradoxically it's possibly the most needed, as the UK has worse broadband than many so called developing countries).
At the moment I have one region in OS Grid, and am considering setting up another region, hosted in a data centre, but that may change as I am bulding my own mini-grid in the form of a large megaregion, which may well be connected to the Metaverse by HG from a home hosted server as I get fibre optic in April.
OS Grid is still the place to experiment, to build to have fun, but it has to remembered that it's not a free-for-all and what the owners say, goes. If you don't like it, then don't go there, it's not the only show in town.
I full well understand that grid owners can and do make decisions as they see fit. I understand completely that a person can accept those decisions or can go someplace else if they do not.
Clearly I disagree with decisions that have been made and actions that have been taken. However, I never said that I would not abide by them.
"OS Grid is still the place to experiment, to build to have fun…" That is true, but I, and others, can no longer enjoy that. We are no longer allowed to participate for the simple reason of voicing our disagreement with decisions and actions taken. I can no longer visit friends, check out new builds, explore great sims or go wandering to see what is new.
I can no longer do those things not because I couldn't accept the decisions made and actions taken, because I can. I can no longer enjoy those things because I voiced my disagreement with those decisions and actions. For having the audacity of speaking up, my forum account was deleted and my grid account has been blocked. I have been censored and banished.
Post preview:
Close preview